InsaneJournal

Tweak says, "i love neely jenkins"

the escaped logician (cadence) wrote,
@ 2008-07-22 18:26:00

Avatar.
I watched the last segment of the series yesterday (the Southern Raiders, Ember Island Players, and Sozin's Comet 1-4).

...It went pretty much like I was expecting it to? I did enjoy it! Some parts made me smile happily (hugs for everyone!) and others... not so much (I'm not even really involved, but I know what the fandom didn't need, and that's more incitement to pairing wars).

Overall, I rate it "good." Much like the series as a whole. Compelling in its way, but also occasionally annoyingly trite. There was also much lampshade-hanging, which I minded some times more than others.

...I still really don't want to interact with the fandom at large, though. -_-

Particular things that bothered me:
- Blood bending. After all the setup and moral questionability, Katara just... uses it all of a sudden, with no more consequences than a blink from Zuko. And okay, maybe a decent treatment of it would be way too dark for the show. But then they shouldn't have introduced it in the first place. >_>
- "Did Jet just die?" "--You know, it was really unclear." WHUT. I. What! And then they don't say anything else about it! They just toss off a joke about a character's possible death?
- The Ember Island play shipping Zuko/Katara. See above Re: inciting pairing wars.
- The Ember Island play not making it clear why the audience was supposed to be on the side of the Fire Nation. It's a Fire Nation play! The whole country is not just... against peace and the balance of the world. It should have been more clearly slanted, like real propaganda.
- The war meeting. I suppose I am glad genocide was obviously evil enough to make up your mind, Zuko. -_-; Wouldn't want it to be anything subtle.
- Azula losing it. Okay, her friends betrayed her. But she's been a cold hard sociopath since she was a small child, and she's finally getting what she wants! It felt too... imposed.
- Zuko as Fire Lord. I don't really see why that would look any less like a usurping than Iroh taking over. It just means he has "the Avatar is on my side" as firepower.

Things I did like:
- Zuko and Katara as ninjas together! :3
- "Nice Zuko costume! But your scar's on the wrong side." Zuko: "It's not on the wrong side!"
- Group hug! :D
- "Is it your turn to go on a field trip with Zuko?" "Yes." Pfft. Particularly as my prediction for the Southern Raiders was, "Katara's turn to go off with Zuko and make friends."
- Also Toph going "I'm going with Zuko!" and Zuko blushing. Hee.
- Iroh!
- Also, the amount of hugs in general. Yay teamwork.

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(Anonymous)
2008-07-22 09:09 pm UTC (link)

I would just like to say as the resident, well nomadic Azula advocate, that I don't think her freak out was quiet so much about a forced break down when she finally gets what she wants as her, actually finally getting what she wanted.

I'll admit they could've lead up to it better, but rather than think of it as her freaking out because her friends betrayed her. I think it's more, her freaking out because she no longer has anyone to trust.

She's finally gotten what she wants, she's the Fire Lord, now all she has to do is hold onto it, but she doesn't have anyone she can trust. The only people in the world she did trust betrayed her, so if [i]They[/i] betrayed her what about all the people in the world she doesn't trust?

And I would just like to say that after her little chained up thrashing about crying, I'm not supposed to lose, fit. I felt she needed a hug. But alas Ty Lee was in prison...

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cadence
2008-07-22 09:27 pm UTC (link)

Honestly, without spoiling things too much, who she reminded me of was Light at the end of Death Note. (You watched the movies, at least, right?) But that's very different than Light when he finally got everything he wanted - then he was absolutely in control.

Do you think Azula really trusted Mai and Ty Lee? Took them for granted, maybe. I'm sure it was a blow to her confidence in herself - her own judgement - but I don't think it was exactly a betrayal of trust. I could see it helping to break her down if things continued to go badly, but for her to just... unravel completely on the day of her coronation struck me as off, at least the way I see her.

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(Anonymous)
2008-07-22 10:34 pm UTC (link)

Well if you say it was a blow in her confidence in herself, which it probably was. Than you can say that she had no confidence in herself left when things came down to it, after all she lost her friends, she lost to her brother, got thrown of an air ship counts as losing I think, and then her father, who she seemed to have pretty well manipulated what with the whole "I think you should burn their hope, and their land down" or whatever it was she said that spurred Dad on his little genocidal remaking the world kick, doesn't do what she thought he was going to do and instead declares himself King of everything.

Which leaves her to govern the homeland alone, a major responsibility, and something she can't let anything go wrong with or daddy isn't going to be too happy and might just start treating her like Zuko if she doesn't do well.

I definitely think her little "You can't treat me like Zuko" fit had more to it than just her thinking Ozai doesn't like her anymore. Her self confidence might have been dangerously low if she thought her dad was thinking the same of her as he did of Zuko. Which he clearly never has. What with her being "Born lucky" and all.

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redbird
2008-07-23 12:22 am UTC (link)

I dunno, I think Katara's use of bloodbending made perfect sense. She's already shown that she will use it in dire situations, even if she doesn't want to -- and here she was using it against a man she clearly hated deeply and passionately. And why should Zuko comment on her use of it? He doesn't have any reason to know how taboo it is -- and he thinks that what Katara decides to do in seeking revenge is her business anyway, as he makes very clear. He doesn't think it's his job to police her actions (and she would have bitten his head off for trying).

I think that, in addition to recapping the series, 'The Ember Island Players' was all about poking fun at the series and at its fandom (I loved the joke about cosplay! XD) I think the creators have always been quite bemused at how popular Zuko/Katara is as a pairing, and have taken lots of opportunities to poke fun at it - less in a 'wow, people who ship this pairing are stupid' sort of way, more in a 'why would you ever think these two would work out?' sort of way.

I mean, on the one hand, I feel like people should be able to ship whatever they want, regardless of canon, and it does seem a bit immature for the creators to repeatedly go, 'by the way, it's NOT GONNA HAPPEN' at the fans. On the other hand, I feel like that's their right, as the creators; and anyway, I kinda feel that anyone who takes shipping as seriously as certain Zutarans do kind of deserves to be poked at. It shouldn't be such a big screaming deal whether the creators support your ship or not; that's what fanon is for.

And I think the Jet thing was just them poking fun at themselves, because what happened to Jet in the 2nd season WAS really unclear, and I suspect they got a lot of feedback to that effect.

With regards to Azula, I'm just gonna link to this post by Herongale, because she says it far better and more succinctly than I ever could. ^^; Suffice it to say, Azula's downfall made perfect sense to me, and I thought it was one of the most compelling and well-done parts of the show.

I think Zuko taking over as Fire Lord made sense too, because yeah, the Avatar is on his side -- but the Avatar being such a universal symbol of balance and equality and the good of all, I think that his support would be a ringing endorsement of Zuko's suitability, not just a big gun backing him up.

All these things are just my opinions, though, your mileage may vary, and all. ^^; And I'm with you 100% on wanting to keep the fuck out of fandom's way. ._. Holy cats.

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cadence
2008-07-23 12:57 am UTC (link)

I think Katara using bloodbending made perfect sense - what struck me as off was that that was the end of it. She'd sworn that it was a horrible thing to do, and she used it against the wrong person, and that wasn't even... commented on, afterwards. I would have expected at least a "hey, what was that you just did?" from Zuko, since it's not exactly a widespread skill. And maybe "wow, had I not seen his face I could have made a man kill himself in a horrible way for something he didn't do" from Katara.

I actually could believe that bloodbending misdirectedly in her anger was a big influence in choosing not to kill the man who actually killed her mother. But that wasn't there.

I think I disliked the parts of the Ember Island Players I did because they mixed that sort of self-mocking fourth-wall breaking with serious exposition. I would have been fine if it was entirely a fluff episode, even with the Jet comment and the Zuko/Katara. But when they're simultaneously having Zuko look like a kicked puppy and Aang look heartbroken, it stopped working like that for me. The Jet comment became a kick, because it was like the characters (well, Sokka) were treating the maybe-death of a more-or-less-friend lightly.

I think that was my problem with the play's conclusion, too - you can't both have it be about poking fun and use it to show that the Fire Nation people really believe the Fire Lord will kill them all. o_O If it's an actual play we're supposed to believe exists in the context of the plot, it shouldn't make the characters sympathetic and then have the audience cheer when they die. That's... not how it works.

Hmm. That post on Azula makes sense, and she says a lot of the same things I was saying above. Maybe my problem is just that I was never very invested in Mai and Ty Lee, and just sort of blinked at their betrayal. (I almost put 'Zuko/Mai' on my 'bothers me' list, because I really don't understand that at all. >_> )

--The Avatar has not been a universal symbol of balance and equality, though. Not to the Fire Nation, who have been saturated with government propaganda for a century, and were supposed to be excited when it was reported that Zuko killed the Avatar and returned home. Announcing to those same people "oh yes, and now? The banished son who killed the Avatar (only not) and then betrayed his homeland to join him? The Avatar took out his father, and now he's the leader." Does not, uh, seem like a great way to start off one's reign, to me.

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redbird
2008-07-23 01:21 am UTC (link)

Ah, yes, that is a good point. I guess I never made the assumption that Katara was going to kill the guy, with or without bloodbending, without ascertaining his identity first.

The tone-switching in The Ember Island Players really didn't bother me that much, because the series has juxtaposed silliness with serious business before (though admittedly not always to that degree); however, I can definitely understand why it would bother some people.

I admit, I rather liked Zuko/Mai by the end of the show, because by then I had a much better sense of why they would like each other. But yeah, at the beginning of third season, it was more embarrassing than anything else.

Mmm, true. The people of the Fire Nation would have been saturated with government propaganda for 100 years -- but the idea of the Avatar is fundamentally built into the foundation of their civilization, and I think atamping out belief in the Avatar and what he or she stands for entirely would be nigh on impossible, even for The Phoenix King. And yes, they may have cheered if the news came back that Zuko had killed the Avatar -- but really, when you're living under a dangerous dictatorship, what else do you do? To me, that's why 'The Ember Island Players' ended with the Fire Lord winning, and why everyone cheered -- because that's what you do. But the show also probably haven't have gotten so popular if the people hadn't, on some level, wanted more stories about the Avatar.

There seems to have been quite a lot of variation within the Fire Nation, which makes sense, between people who are all for the war to people who support the Avatar to (I suspect a majority of) people who just want to live their lives peacefully. I think episodes like "The Headband" did a pretty good job expressing that the Fire Nation is not all evil power-hungry bastards; most of it is just ordinary people living their lives. That said, I would fully expect any sequel or spinoff to address the fact that trying to rule the Fire Nation and rebuild the world would be an extremely rocky road, and I'll be among the first to cry foul if the creators paint Zuko's rule as a smooth and easy one, because it shouldn't be. (I still think it makes more sense for Zuko to inherit the crown than Iroh, though, if only because he is the next in line, with the Fire Lord and the Fire Lord's chosen successor both indisposed. So if nothing else, there's that).

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	redbird 2008-07-23 01:31 am UTC (link)
	*stamping. Also, wouldn't have. I clearly win hardcore. >_> (Reply to this) (Parent)

cadence
2008-07-23 01:49 am UTC (link)

I wouldn't have expected her to use bloodbending at all without confirming his identity first. >_>

It wasn't the switching between silly and serious tone that bothered me so much as the switching between obvious meta-commentary and series-canon plot. If they're going to throw in Zuko/Katara as an obvious poke at people, they shouldn't have Aang getting upset about it as a plot point; if they're going to have Sokka cry over Yue, he shouldn't toss off a comment about Jet's death like it's nothing. ...But yeah, maybe it's just me. ^^;

o_O But there was that Earth Kingdom town where they all hated the Avatar, even. It's clearly not impossible to change people's minds on this issue.

I don't think people cheered just because they knew that was what was expected. That was what "The Headband" said, to me - yes, they're not all evil power-hungry bastards, just ordinary people, but that can be true and they can still think the Fire Lord is right. Because that's all they're taught, their history is edited, they're not allowed to do anything counter to that idea. That's how a fascist system like that works - you can't keep all those people in line just because they're afraid of the consequences, not for that long. And so you get all these Fire Nation kids absolutely loyal to their country and confused at the concept of a dance party. ^^ Fixing that is going to require some serious cultural changes. (The dance party was a tiny start; that was the point, the propaganda brainwashing can be broken.)

And I wasn't saying that Iroh inheriting would have made more sense (although he is probably more qualified to do the work that will be required) - just that Iroh's argument for why he couldn't was "it'll just look like a brother taking out his brother to usurp the throne," and that doesn't hold terribly much water when compared with... a brother taking out his sister to usurp the throne. >_> (And, okay, having the Avatar take out his dad.)

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redbird
2008-07-23 02:19 am UTC (link)

I hadn't really expected her to use bloodbending either; it just drove home to me how much she clearly hated the guy, and how much business she meant. It was surprising that she did that, because normally Katara doesn't behave that violently, even to her enemies; but then, the whole point of the episode is that this is not normal behavior fo Katara, and it's something she needs to get out of her system. So I guess the bloodbending was surprising to me, but not out of character. ^^;

True. I guess all I'm getting at is that I don't think it's unreasonable to assume that whether people supported the Fire Lord or not, whether they supported the war or not, they could still see the return of the Avatar as a positive thing. Not saying that all of them would, but still. People often hold conflicting beliefs without feeling that conflicted themselves. XD

I also don't feel like Zuko 'had the Avatar do' anything; Aang would have taken down Ozai regardless of Zuko's feelings on the matter, and while maybe not everyone in the Fire Nation would have seen it that way, I'm pretty sure that most of them would be saying later on that at the point when he was attempting genocide against the Earth Kingdom, Ozai needed to be taken down -- and the Avatar was the only one who could have done it without it seeming to be a political takedown and thus making matters worse. People might not have said anything if Aang hadn't taken Ozai down, cos as you said, that's how a fascist state works, and not many people in Nazi Germany or Stalinist Russia were speaking out (at least not for long) when Hitler and Stalin were still in charge -- but I'm pretty sure they'd change their tune after the change in leadership.

I see your point about how Zuko overthrowing Azula isn't techncally that different than Iroh overthrowing Ozai. But he also at that point didn't know that Ozai had already passed power to Azula, did he? (Neither did Zuko, of course, which sort of begs the question of how he and Katara knew to find Azula in the capital and not at Ozai's side, but that's beside the point XD) and so he wasn't seeing it as Zuko overthrowing Azula, but Zuko overthrowing Ozai. So he maybe figured that the younger generation supplanting the older one was more natural than two brothers squabbling for power? I don't know. XD I don't feel I've expressed myself very well thus far. It's been a while since I watched the previous seasons.

...It's also possible that Iroh was making excuses because he just wanted his tea shop, damn it, and all this ruling business be darned. ^^; I suppose we'll never know.

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	redbird 2008-07-23 02:20 am UTC (link)
	But he also at that point didn't know that Ozai had already passed power to Azula, did he? 'He' in this sentence being Iroh, by the way. XP I really should be going to bed. No wonder I'm expressing myself poorly. >_> (Reply to this) (Parent)

cadence
2008-07-23 02:33 am UTC (link)

I don't think it was out of character either! I just think, given the context of the series, it should have been remarked upon or otherwise given due significance. ^^;

And it's clear to us that Zuko didn't "have the Avatar" do anything, yes. But that is abundantly not clear to people in the Fire Nation. That's all my point is, I guess. That while Zuko ruling with the Avatar's support is clearly a change for the better to us - and presumably to almost everyone in the other nations - it doesn't seem remotely that clear to the people of the Fire Nation. At the very least those people who were in positions of power under Ozai or his ancestors, and at the most a substantial chunk of the country, see the Avatar as opposition.

So yeah. Zuko's coronation didn't really look like a shining beacon of non-political maneuvers to me, Avatar's presence or no. But perhaps I am underestimating the impact of a magical avatar of balance due to my belief in more mundane politics. >_>

And now I should really get to bed. ^^;

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redbird
2008-07-23 02:52 am UTC (link)

Look how much sleep I'm not getting! DX

Ah, I see. Yes, that does make more sense. ^^;

*nodnod* I'm a believer in politics, too, and I'm not trying to downplay the importance or the influence of them. XD But I do see 'Avatar' as being high correlated to Buddhism (or really, any religion with a savior or messiah figure). I see the Avatar as primarily a religious, rather than a strictly political, figure. And so I ask myself what kind of impact it would have on me if I lived in a Buddhist society (or at least, one founded on Buddhism), and the new Buddha came and deposed the ruler of my country, and showed support for a particular successor. At the very least, it would have a very different impact than if it were done by any normal person.

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(Anonymous)
2008-07-23 09:16 pm UTC (link)

I think it's less about the Avatar and more about Zuko. Iroh said that History would see him overthrowing his brother as just one brother killing another for power.

But perhaps it's more Because Zuko was a banished prince that his return and rise to power worked so well. Rather than Iroh, who was once a celebrated hero and then just sort of slunk off into obscurity, Zuko is a move public figure, the prince who was banished at thirteen by his father returns with the most powerful being in existence, who just defeated the previous lord, not even killed, but defeated, and brought back to the Fire Nation, something Iroh wouldn't have been able to do, since he can't take away someone's bending.

Thus, History won't see it as Zuko killing his father for the crown. It'll instead be more, the Avatar stopping Fire Lord Ozai from upsetting the balance even more, or just stopping genocide whichever they prefer, the princess going insane, or perhaps something more class but regardless Azula's not going to be winning any popularity contests for ruler, and the banished son of the defeated Fire Lord returning to rule with the Avatar's praise.

Not to mention Zuko looks the part. The scared prince retuning to help heal the scars of the world along side the Avatar, has a nice ring to it, very easy to popularize in the minds of the clearly brainwashed people of the Fire Nation.

Plus he is the rightful, if banished, and the Fire Nation people don't seem too into going against authority. *sarcasm* I wonder who taught them that. *end sarcasm*

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nanthimus
2008-07-23 12:32 pm UTC (link)

Oddly enough, EIP didn't incite a massive pairing war! No more than the series itself does, anyway. All of the real ship war stuff happened after Sozin's Comet 1-4 aired, sadly.

Yes, stay away from fandom! Aang and Mai bashing has reached an all-time high as well as Mike and Bryan hate. I'm staying as far away as possible (while, you know, still being in it) so I can love my show and cry and be nostalgic in peace.

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	redbird 2008-07-25 12:50 am UTC (link)
	It does seem very saddening that people can watch a show as really really good as Avatar, and the only thing that amtters to them at the end is who ends up with who. That just... seems to be missing the point on a rather epic scale. And the show had so many good points to make. :-/ (Reply to this) (Parent)